GRRRR

[vakkotaur]

Fair warning about the links below: Some folks might find some of the language used in the postings linked below to be offensive. And I might use some forceful language myself.

There was a post by 2_gryphon. And xydexx has what seems an interesting reaction to it. Another, dour, pointed out that identifying symptoms is not in itself treatment. Someone else, I forgot to note who, pointed out this contrast.

2 says the post is him just letting of steam. Fine. No problem. But it's not just his blowing off steam. The "just die already" attitude is not unusual. While there may be those who are genuinely determined to be miserable, it's more likely that the case is one of learned pessimism. The thing with learning is that there is often a teacher of a sort involved, though probably not in the formal classroom sense.

When one finds that the supposed friendly pat on the back was no such thing as claimed, but just a ruse to attach a "kick me" sign, a lesson is learned. When one walks along minding one's own business and is actively tripped, a lesson is learned. When one is told a joke in such a way to make one the victim of it, a lesson is learned. Each incident alone might be small and forgettable, and maybe even forgivable - once. But if they are repeated, the lessons are reinforced. Those are but three examples. There are so many other things that can, and do, happen to some.

Would it be any wonder that someone who experienced this sort of thing, over and over and over again, would learn to be paranoid? After all, the pat on the back can't be trusted, so maybe it's best not to be touched at all. It's safer. One can't trust people not to trip, so keep your eyes open - and look down to see where their feet are. The joke is at your expense, so it's best not to play along. And this makes a person look like they're paranoid, and depressed, and humorless.

And then people, often even the ones who taught all those things, wonder what's wrong with that person that he is so miserable. It's because they taught him to be miserable. A simple apology, even if actually heartfelt, will not undo all that. Genuine friendship might, eventually, mitigate the effects. And then there are the objections that this person "doesn't want to be friends with anyone." No. That person probably wants that more than anything else in the world. But he's learned that opening up to people -- the evil teachers of the lessons of paranoia, depression, and mistrust -- only makes him a victim yet again. Defenses go up. And with each new lesson, the fort walls get thicker and the armaments get heavier. Getting though all that will take effort. And it'll be slow going.

The deserving targets of outrage and disgust are not the people who wound up like this, but the bastards who did it to them.

Comments

[jmaynard.livejournal.com]

That post just ensured that I won't add 2 to my friends list, or (should I find myself at another furry con) go out of my way to get into his show - even if there's not a 30-minute line.

Ok. Read all of it... and...

[bronxelf-ag001.livejournal.com]

Although I understand and appreciate everything you've said, I will mention that dealing with seriously depressed people is very draining. I don't know this guy. I don't know the other guy who is no longer alive. But I can tell you that when someone is suicidal, as part of a continual and ongoing problem with depression and sadness that goes beyond "lessons learned" and has long since skated over to clinical depression-- a medical illness.

That being said, not everyone can or is willing to even *recognize* they have a problem, and many others refuse to seek help, either believing that nothing can help them, or (as in the case of the person who made such a scene at my wedding), that it's everyone else's fault and they are totally normal.

Either way, dealing with such people can often be seriously emotionally draining. They become emotional vampires, and frustrating to speak with. That loud sucking noise you hear is them sucking the joy out of absolutely anything. Mike can be like this. Believe me, you get aggravated.

Having been on both sides of this fence, I know that if someone truly wants to kill themselves, they will make the attempt (and I mean a real one-- not a "suicidal gesture"). I have also been in a situation where I knew someone well who did commit suicide, and all things considered, I don't know that it was a bad thing. She was *miserable* , had been miserable, had sought both inpatient and outpatient treatment for *years*, and never got one iota better. In fact her life only slowly spiraled ever downward and nothing she did ever made her feel any better, even though she sought help.

Although I think this guy 2's comments perhaps sound harsh to more sensitive ears than my own, I do understand how he came to the place he is when he wrote his post.

Re: Ok. Read all of it... and...

[jmaynard.livejournal.com]

I understand how he got to where he is. I just believe that it reflects a total lack of understanding, or sympathy, to those who have a clinical illness - and, even worse, his reply comments indicate that he doesn't want to understand. The latter aspect of the discussion is what turned me off to him so completely.

I've been there, too. In my case, a year or so of therapy and several months of antidepressants cured the problem. I don't know if it would help the target of 2's ire. I do know as an absolute fact that there are many people who cannot just flip a switch and get over it. They need help, and often their illness makes them refuse to seek it.

Re: Ok. Read all of it... and...

[bronxelf-ag001.livejournal.com]

As you know, I have been on both sides of it as well. And even I can only have sympathy that goes so far. After a while you have to stop dipping your hand in the crazy, because the emotional drain on yourself becomes just too much. To use another analogy-- if a baby is crying in a restaurant, you understand it's hungry/tired/the result of complete idiots for parents. You can even feel sorry for the kid. But it doesn't stop you from recognizing the crying is annoying as fuck and all you want is for the kid to STFU.

I did not read his reply comments. Should I have?

Re: Ok. Read all of it... and...

[jmaynard.livejournal.com]

You should, when you've got some time to {invest,waste}. Look especially at the thread on the second page, starting here.

"Refusing help"

[vakkotaur.livejournal.com]

The problem is that often the help that is suggested comes across as "You're not just like us. Go become like us. There's a pill that'll make you into Our Kind of People." But this is often said by someone who they do not wish to be like, as it's the damned instigator of the problem. The cure is to become the kind of person who did this to someone? That will get rejected every time. They want to be able to be happy, not turn into jerks who get their happiness by causing misery.

For genuine depression I have no problem with people genuinely suggesting professional help. What I'm seeing here though is not clinical depression but a learned behavior that was inflicted on someone and then someone gets told that he shouldn't have learned the lessons he was taught - something he could hardly avoid doing. It's a perverse variant of the already perverse "You just can't take a joke."

I won't deny that the result is frustrating to deal with, from either side. But all the same, the best thing would for the malevolent lessons to stop. I don't see this as likely, just as they way it ought to be.

depression

[jugularjaguar.livejournal.com]

I will have to make a post about this in my own LJ. I have had something I wanted to say about the depression I have suffered from for a couple of years. I feel I am on the up swing now and should make a post about it.

Re: depression

[vakkotaur.livejournal.com]

Good to hear you are feeling better. Having read much, and perhaps all, of your LJ postings, I can see why you'd be down after some things. I hope the upswing continues and holds.